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The Plant Centered and Thriving Podcast
Welcome! If you're looking for plant-based inspiration, you've come to the right place! This podcast is here so you don’t have to feel alone on your plant-based journey. You'll hear from individuals who have taken the leap to go plant-based, why they did it, the struggles they faced, their words of wisdom for you, and how they're thriving now.
The Plant Centered and Thriving Podcast
Globe-Trotting on Greens: How to Thrive as a Vegan Abroad
"You haven't had bad tofu, you've only had tofu prepared badly"
When Phoenix first peered behind the curtain of factory farming in middle school, they couldn't unsee the truth. From navigating family dynamics to adapting culinary techniques in a trade school kitchen, their experiences are as varied as they are enlightening. As Phoenix reminisces about their recent three-month sojourn in Italy, they provide tips and cultural cues for vegan travelers exploring the gastronomic landscapes abroad. Join us for an episode that promises to enrich your palate and your perspective, whether you're vegan or simply curious about the plant-powered way of life.
If you want to connect with Phoenix, visit the following:
Instagram: @AngelOfHarmony000
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Plant Centered Nutrition Essential Resources:
Welcome to the Plant-Centered and Thriving Podcast. I'm your host, ashley Kitchens. I'm a plant-based registered dietitian and virtual nutrition mentor. I was raised on an Angus Cattle Farm, grew up with a lot of GI issues and used the power of plant-based eating to promote healing. Here you'll find inspiration, ideas and encouragement for your own plant-based journey. I'm so thrilled you're here today. Let's get started.
Speaker 2:Welcome Plant-Centered listeners. My name is Katie and I am thrilled you are here with me today. I will be your host, and I am so excited to welcome Phoenix, our guest today, who is going to be talking all about vegan travel. If you have traveled overseas and maybe you have thought about it, maybe you've wanted to, maybe you've had a bad experience. Phoenix has just recently come back from living abroad in Italy for three months while vegan, and so their point of view is so interesting, and I just can't not wait to share their story with you, as well as some tips and tricks about traveling while vegan. So buckle up, get ready for the story of Phoenix.
Speaker 3:Welcome Phoenix to the show. We're so happy that you are here.
Speaker 4:Thank you for having me. I'm glad that I get to talk a little bit about veganism, which I'm so passionate about, and share that with the wider audience.
Speaker 3:Yes, we love our passionate vegans. We are so glad you're here and we've never met before, but we do have a very special connection. I had the privilege and honor of being your mother, Rachelle being her nutrition coach for quite a few months, and she has always been one of my favorites and she made beautiful progress, so that's kind of how we got connected.
Speaker 4:Yeah, my mom has said such great things about you and she's been kind of transitioning to being vegan recently, so she really wanted me to do this.
Speaker 3:You coming in. It's kind of a flip-flop from what we usually hear. Usually the parents come in and they kind of start their plant-based journey or their vegan journey and then the kids just kind of follow suit. So this is an interesting dichotomy where you started your vegan journey really, really early, so that makes your story very unique. Can you tell us a little bit about how that started way back when?
Speaker 4:Yeah, so I was in middle school and I was just flipping through YouTube videos and I came across some videos about how animals are treated in factory farms and how common factory farms are, and showed a lot of videos about what happened. And I, of course immediately was disgusted and thought how can this even happen? And so then at the end of the video it said like but you can help by going vegan. And so I decided that from that point, whenever I sat down for a meal, I was going to watch a video of how, of where that food came from. And if I couldn't eat the food after watching the video, then you know that was probably something I didn't want in my diet.
Speaker 4:I think it was like two days later I kind of forgot that I had made that promise and I was halfway through a very meaty bacon cheeseburger and then I remembered, oh yeah, like I wanted to do this thing. I wanted to stop eating as much meat. So I went online, I looked at how dairy and beef were produced, which they're really just the same industry. After watching those videos, I was too disgusted to finish my burger and so I just put it in the fridge for someone else to finish and I found something else to eat for dinner that night. Then I kind of just went eschatarian because I had a hard time like empathizing with sea creatures at first.
Speaker 4:I didn't quite see their pain as easily. And so for about a year and a half I pretty much was mostly vegan, but just ate fish and other sea creatures and like fish oil and stuff like that. And then one day I saw a video on Instagram of a pot of boiling soup with a crawfish hanging on for dear life on the edge of the pot, and at that point I could see, wow, sea creatures want to live just like us. They, they have self-preservation, they can feel pain. They, they can tell what's about to happen to them and it scares them. They really don't want that to happen.
Speaker 4:So that was kind of the turning point to fully go vegan. And so, yeah, around that point I Fully stopped eating sea creatures. I'd already cut out all other types of meats, though it wasn't that difficult to just, you know, stop eating sushi and get my Omega fatty acids from plant-based pills instead of fish oil pills, and yeah, so after making that, I've I've pretty much went vegan and have never gone back. My mom Didn't entirely know what to do at first.
Speaker 3:A lot of kids, you know, kind of go through this phases of Going vegetarian, because they do start to, you know, have more autonomy. They're doing their own research and, and you know so many of us grow up with dogs and pets and we have this empathy for animals, but we also don't have the ability to control the grocery store, shopping or making our own dinner. So a lot of times those intentions kind of get shut down by just the Everyday of how family life works and the logistics and things. So how did you manage that with your family? What did they think when you made this declaration?
Speaker 4:Both of my older sisters at one point had gone vegetarian for like a Weaker a month or so and then quit it, and so they kind of thought You're probably just going through the same phase that they did like I doubt this will last, but then you know, time, can I just? I?
Speaker 4:was still vegan and they're like oh yes, this wasn't a phase after all. My mom luckily she was pretty she was pretty supportive with buying vegan food. I remember, even before I went vegan, she would sometimes try these like plant-based hot dogs and yes.
Speaker 4:I'm a kid. I tried them and I thought Apparently they improve the recipe and so she would buy them for me again and I was like, oh, this wasn't as bad as I thought as a kid. At first I did still have a rather unhealthy diet. I would still eat most like a bunch of hyper refined carbs. They still had like no fiber in my diet, still wasn't really eating vegetables. I just it sounds crazy being vegan without vegetables. But no, it was almost entirely just like grains and legumes and then I might have like PB&J Sandwiches and stuff like that, but still very much a eater.
Speaker 4:At first I did lose a lot of weight, but I wouldn't say it was an unhealthy amount. I weighed more than the average kid at that age. After losing weight my weight actually stabilized an extreme amount like it Basically has only ever fluctuated by like a couple pounds in an entire year since I've gone vegan. So like my weight has become much more healthy, much more stable. My parents were a little concerned when there was like the very quick sudden Drop-off and weight, which is fair. If I was them I would have been concerned about that too. But yeah, luckily it ended up not being a bad thing. It was kind of a false alarm.
Speaker 4:Over time I realized okay, if I'm vegan, I I'm gonna have to try some stuff that I'm not used to or that I thought I don't like. I Would try new vegetables. I remember trying tofu for the first time. I tried it out like this is. This is interesting. It's like the textures so strange. I'm not used to it. It was a little bit like daunting, just trying something new that I didn't entirely know what it was. But after I give it a shot, as I tried more and more tofu stuff, I realized that it's all about preparation and so even if you have bad tofu, that means that it was prepared bad, not necessarily that tofu is bad. It's kind of like with anything, like there's nothing worse than a dry, bland chicken there's. In the same way, there's nothing worse than, you know, bland and seasoned tofu.
Speaker 3:I love that you bring up that point because for some reason, going vegan it's like these really high Expectations are put on these different ingredients, especially tofu. It's like the poster child of going plant-based. And you're exactly right, there's nothing worse than bad tofu.
Speaker 3:But it's just like anything. Just because you have one bad hamburger doesn't mean you're you swear off hamburgers forever. You just try different preparation that that works with kind of your taste buds. So it's the exact same thing for for vegan food. So I love that you were in that kind of experimental phase and and pushing yourself to to have more, have more veggies, because we've all been there.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that was definitely probably the biggest hurdle when it came to that was just Incorporating new foods into my diet, and especially when some of them are sound kind of weird because, uh, we're kind of used to the same three foods, you know, chickens, pigs and cows, but they're over 10,000 food like plant-based foods. That's just ingredients, not even counting dishes that you can make with those foods. When you're used to such a small palette, it can be scary to try new foods that you've never heard of or you're not entirely sure what they are. But you know. Luckily we live in the age of the internet, so if that's ever an issue you can just look up hey, what is this thing? Where does it come from? It takes like 10 seconds and that can help overcome the fear of trying those new foods.
Speaker 3:Yeah, there's a recipe for anything. I used to really loved going to Red Lobster and eating the Cheddar Bay Biscuits, and so I've had this vegan recipe for the biscuits forever and I'm going to try it one day.
Speaker 3:But yeah, I don't know what we did without Google before. It must have been really hard to be a plant-based person, but I'm so glad that the people nowadays don't have to worry about that because there's a recipe literally for anything, so we don't have to miss out. So I know you were mentioning kind of how your family were pretty open and supportive. How about your peers and your friends? Were you kind of the odd person out? Did they treat you differently? Like how did you deal with going to birthday parties and birthday cake, that kind of thing?
Speaker 4:Well, at the time I was still being homeschooled. So I was homeschooled up until high school. So I had a solid year before going to public school where I was transitioning to plant-based. But I would still have some classes in person with friends and I was a little bit of the odd one out.
Speaker 4:Something that I find interesting, that I didn't quite realize at first, is when you say that you're vegan, people feel like they have the right to say what you can and can't eat, even when you're just transitioning to being vegan, even if you're not quite there yet.
Speaker 4:They'll think, oh no, this thing has the tiniest bit of cheese and you're trying to be vegan, so you have to go with this super bland, boring option, even though you're not fully vegan yet. I find that can be a bit hard when you're really focusing on just cutting out one thing at a time. Sometimes people don't understand that and they'll think, oh no, you have to be all vegan or nothing like. There's no in between. A lot of vegans transitioned to being vegan and didn't just, you know, wake up one day and boom, suddenly they never ate animals or any products again. I had some friends who wanted to go vegan around my same age, but their parents weren't quite as supportive and so they didn't end up going through with it. But yeah, I think as a parent it's very important to give your kid that space to explore it and not kind of push them towards you know oh, not being vegan.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, and I love that. You made the point that you know there's a transition period, that it doesn't have to be all or nothing, that you can allow yourself to use the label of yes, I'm trying to eat more plant-based, I'm trying to go vegan, but I'm not quite there yet. But just because I'm still eating cheese but everything else is gone doesn't mean I'm kicked out of the club. It means I'm doing the best that I can. So I love that that you know you had the space and the support to make that transition. I think that's such a good reminder for people out there that you know you can let people know that it's a process. It doesn't have to be an all or nothing type of thing. So I know that's a struggle for many of our listeners.
Speaker 4:You're not less vegan just because you know you're on your way but not quite there yet. You're still making that effort and that's what matters, which. I've heard some vegans be very harsh against people who do that and say, oh, like being halfway vegan is worse than being an omnivore, when really it's not. It's like it's not enough.
Speaker 3:The mask doesn't add up.
Speaker 4:Exactly Like if everyone in the US just went 80% and 80% vegan. That's so much better than you know, with half the population went 100% vegan. Like it's all about you know doing as much as you can, and if it's not easy to cut out things overnight, it's okay to take that time and work on cutting out one thing at a time.
Speaker 3:For sure, for sure. So to fast forward a little bit, after high school you're trying to decide okay, I'm going to go to school and I'm going to study something in particular. So I know you mentioned you were interested in the culinary arts at one point. Did being vegan, did that influence that choice? Or have you just been kind of a lover of cooking?
Speaker 4:I've always loved culinary arts.
Speaker 4:I even as a kid I would I would attempt to cook and bake.
Speaker 4:I definitely had my fair share of horrible disasters that were basically inedible, but you know, I kept cooking ever since I was a kid and I loved helping in the kitchen and I really just loved food and the art and science of food, and I think it's one of the few places where art and science really come together and work beautifully.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and so it definitely got stronger as it became vegan, because I wanted to make my own meals and cook tofu the way that I like it, rather than having, you know, the hellish bland tofu. Then I did go to a trade school that is targeted towards high schoolers so they can get a trade certification by the time they graduate, and luckily, I was able to get that certification the year that I graduated and so I did that, and luckily, my chef was also very open about me being vegan. She had one rule, which was you always have to at least try something, but she made the exception of if you're like vegan, vegetarian, or I don't eat something for religious reasons, then that's the one case where, okay, you don't have to try stuff, but that was really nice, and she would also help me veganize the recipes that we were learning in class.
Speaker 3:Fantastic. Wow, that's so nice that you had an instructor like that, because sometimes the ones on TV you see they're not so nice. So, going through this, this trade school do you have? And being vegan, do you have any like? If you could pick like one or two good tips or tricks in the kitchen, do you have any that you can share with our listeners?
Speaker 4:I'll share one tip for cooking and one for baking. For people who love cooking, do not be afraid to use plant-based oils like olive oil, canola oil. I know we're often taught that, oh, fat is bad, but plant-based fats with the exception of coconut oil, which it's a whole thing why that's an exception but for pretty much any other oil it's going to be so healthy for you and not have pretty much any of the negative side effects that come with eating animal fats, and so don't be afraid to use that. That is a great way to get that macronutrients into your diet and to just make your food taste better.
Speaker 3:Right flavor, Exactly.
Speaker 4:And then for baking. One thing that I learned is plant-based butters tend to have a different water to fat ratio, so there's a lot more water her amount of fat, and so when baking, make sure to look at how much water is in the butter. You can do that by saying, okay, a serving size is like 20 grams, and then it's like 10 grams of fat and 2 grams of sugar, so that means there's 8 grams of water left, and so it's important to look at that and kind of adjust the recipe, maybe add a little bit less liquid or a little bit more butter or extra like plant-based oil in the recipe. If you don't do that, that extra water can ruin some recipes, especially stuff like pie crust, which is very sensitive and needs only a tiny amount of water. That can make a huge difference.
Speaker 3:Oh wow, that's super technical. I love that. I love that tip for trick. I burn water, so I'm not gonna be doing any baking any time soon, but our listeners out there, that's such a good tip. I can't wait to show that one. So while you're in school, you had the opportunity to study abroad, which you just recently returned from right I just came back from Rome, italy.
Speaker 4:I studied there for three months. I'm currently a computer science major, so I switched from culinary arts to a more technical field. But I was able to take a few elective classes there and one of the classes was actually a Italian food culture class which I learned so much in.
Speaker 4:It was technically a sociology class, but we also got to try a few foods and even get a lecture from an olive farmer from Umbria, which is the region north of Lazio, and Lazio is the region that Rome is in and he was able to tell us how to pick good olive oil. And we got to try three different olive oils one was fresh, one was a month old and one was like three months old and the difference between fresh olive oil and even just one month old olive oil was insane, which makes me kind of sad that we can't get fresh olive oil easily here yeah, there's the rub, it pretty much everything you see on shelves here in the US is at least a month old, which really it makes such a huge difference, which I didn't realize.
Speaker 4:But yeah, it was very nice being able to explore Italian food culture and also talk to vegans in Italy as well. I noticed that there were a lot more people who were so-called like quasi vegan, also in France as well.
Speaker 4:I was able to visit France during my time there and there were a lot of people who ate almost entirely vegan, but they also weren't nearly as strict about oh, if this thing has like less than 2% milk protein, like you know, I'll pick an alternative if it's there, but if not, I'm not really gonna care, which I definitely don't want to discourage people who are already vegan to introduce that stuff back into their diet. But I think it's Also nice to have that mindset as a new vegan. When you're just figuring stuff out, it can be helpful to focus on the big picture stuff, and I saw that a lot more in Italy, and people also Seem to not be quite as judgmental. If a vegan person over there had something with the tiniest trace of milk, they wouldn't say, oh, you're not vegan anymore. They'd just be like like, oh, I didn't know, that had a tiny amount of milk in it or whatever. And, yeah, I think not having that judgment was Very important to let people be vegan.
Speaker 4:But I think that also partially comes with a lack of understanding. In Italy, one time I went to a restaurant and when I told the server that I was vegan, she said Okay, so what don't you eat? And I said okay, I don't eat like meat or fish, because in Italian it's two different words Dairy or egg. And she said, okay, so you don't eat anything. I was like, no, they're quite a lot of food.
Speaker 3:Well, that is kind of the impression that you get, especially when you're thinking about France and in Italy, at least from an American perspective, that you think of pasta and cheese and lots of butter, especially in these, like very traditional Dishes, and that they're very proud and it's part of their culture that they make the best cheeses in the world and the best Pasta in the world. So questioning that is almost like you're questioning their culture. So so how was that Kind of perception did you? Did you experience any pushback from people about Not turning your nose up but saying do you have a vegan pasta?
Speaker 4:Luckily, I didn't have much pushback with pasta, because most pasta in Italy is actually Made from semolina flour, which doesn't need egg when you make it, although there is, of course, egg pasta as well. But there were some people who didn't entirely understand what vegan meant. So one time I went to a wine tasting and they serve various foods that went with the wine and For some of the dishes they'd bring out a plate of like cheese and balsamic vinegar and then I'd be like, oh, now I'm vegan. And they're like it was just cheese and it's like, oh wait, yeah, cheese and then vegan. Sorry, we get something else.
Speaker 4:There were definitely a lot of people who didn't entirely understand or had a hard time thinking of Vegan foods, but when you really thought about it, there were plenty of vegan foods there, such as Spaghetti, basil and tomato sauce that I saw that a lot in Rome specifically. Each region in Rome in France, is going to have its own unique food culture and so You'll have to look at what, what dishes are there and what vegan options are in that region, because, like Enables, the food that they have there is completely different than what they have in Rome. It varies so much depending just on where you are. Luckily, the friends that I made there were quite accepting and I even had an Italian friend who had me over and he made three course Italian meal and he cried really hard. By the end he decided on pesto, but the pesto that he got had a little bit of parmesan cheese in it.
Speaker 4:Yeah so, like I mentioned it, and he was like oh no, we can do something else. And I I thought Well, you already put so much work into this, we can do pesto. Just next time, know that this has parmesan in it. So luckily I was able to make friends who really went above and beyond with helping me like find vegan restaurants and vegan Italian dishes, and so that was very nice. One of my main friends was over there, was already vegetarian, so he was more than happy to yeah try all of the vegan restaurants with me.
Speaker 3:So what was that access like? In terms of vegan restaurants, were there a lot of them. Did you Really enjoy them? Comparatively to a traditional Italian restaurant? What was that like?
Speaker 4:Luckily, rome is the second best city to be vegan, and when it comes to Italy, it has good.
Speaker 4:I think 11 vegan restaurants in the city. There's fully vegan restaurants. That's not even places just with options and yeah. So I was very lucky to have a plethora of restaurants to choose from, and I was able to try a lot of Traditional foods that were made vegan. There was one that I really liked called the refugio romano, which is Italian for Roman refuge. It originally wasn't a vegan restaurant, but they became vegan at one point and yeah, and they had the most amazing Roman food. They also had a few dishes from other regions of Italy, but they had some of the best food.
Speaker 4:I can't wait to go back already, and so luckily, I had a lot of access in Rome. I think it can be a little bit more difficult in Southern Italy to find those fully vegan places, but in southern Italy they also naturally eat a lot more plant-based, so there will be a lot of options that just aren't labeled as vegan or vegetarian, but if you keep your eye out and ask what's in stuff, there will always be options, although one thing to keep in mind is in Italy you never modify the dish that you're asking for, so you don't ask, oh, can I have this, but without the cheese? I would recommend finding places that have vegan options already on the menu, which I never saw a single restaurant there that didn't have at least one already vegan option. But don't be that picky tourist who's like oh can I have this, but can you?
Speaker 3:completely change the dish. Don't be that American. Exactly, Phoenix. I know you speak five languages, so I'm assuming you got to practice your Italian. So if you have some English speakers going over to Italy to travel and maybe their Italian is not advanced, do you have any tips or tricks for what they can do to let the waiter know that they're vegan, or what to look for on the menu?
Speaker 4:A phrase that is very useful is sono vegana, which means I am vegan. That's how a woman would say it, and if you're a man, you would say sono vegano. If you're a non-binary person, you'd say something that sounds almost identical to the feminine version. So you can just use that, because the nuance is kind of hard to get down if you don't speak Italian. And if you're vegetarian, you can say sono vegeteriana or vegeteriano, depending on your gender. And if they aren't quite sure what that means, you can say which means I don't eat meat or fish, because in Italian that's a different word Meat, fish, egg or milk. I had to use that a few times and people didn't understand, but if you go to the vegan restaurants, you won't have to worry about saying any of that.
Speaker 4:And stuff to look out for on the menu was prosciutto, which is pig meat. It comes from their cheeks. Sometimes on the translated version of the menu it will say bacon instead, so that's easier to spot. But if you don't see bacon anywhere, watch out for prosciutto, because that is not vegan or vegetarian. You can also look out for crema or wolva, which are cream and egg. As for cheeses, they generally say the type of cheese on the menu. So I would just kind of familiarize yourself with the most common types of Italian cheeses. Like cacio e pepe is a dish that has cheese in it, but you probably wouldn't see the word cheese on in the description because they'd say the specific type of cheese.
Speaker 4:So that's the main stuff to watch out for.
Speaker 3:Yeah, those are great tips, and now I'm very hungry for travel and Italian food.
Speaker 4:I highly recommend it. They also ate some animals that we don't eat in the US.
Speaker 4:The most common one, in Rome specifically, was horses. They do eat horses and, yeah, they also eat various parts of the animals that we don't eat. There's one dish specifically with a the intestine of a baby cow with the mother's milk still inside, which, yeah, it can be a bit gory just looking at, just learning about what's on the menu at those places, so that was quite shocking, but there are plenty of vegan restaurants where you can go to and you don't have to worry about any of that.
Speaker 3:How about the animal rights scene? Is it mostly, probably the younger generation, that are bringing that to attention?
Speaker 4:Yeah, definitely. Well, the south of Italy does already eat a lot of plant-based and vegetarian food because it's much cheaper over there than eating meat, because plant foods are subsidized rather than meat being subsidized. In the rest of Italy it's mostly the younger generation going fully vegan and speaking up more against dairy and eggs, and pretty much all of the vegans that I met there were rather young. There were some older vegans that I met, but it was mostly quite young people. But young people tend to create change in any culture.
Speaker 3:Absolutely so interesting I love. One of my favorite things is to travel, so I love that you got the opportunity to go and experience a new culture and try the food as a vegan, and maybe not on purpose, but be representative of someone who's excited about trying new things from the US and still appreciating the history and the culture, but presenting something new and letting them know that the demand, the tourist demand, is there, that we appreciate having those vegan options while traveling. So for all you listeners out there, hopefully this inspired you to maybe not be so nervous like oh, I'm not going to go there this year because I wouldn't have anything to eat. So I love that. Especially in Rome, we have 11 options of restaurants, so that makes me very excited.
Speaker 4:Yes, I would do your research for Florence if you go there, or Pisa, because I would say that was the least vegan friendly city that I found while there. There are options, but you have to certainly do your research a bit more there than with other places. It's not quite as easy to just look up oh, where's a vegan restaurant? Oh, there are five within walking distance.
Speaker 3:I'm sure it's easy to get spoiled for those types of places. For sure and I think that's a good overall tip for most plant-based eaters when traveling is you have to put in a little bit of planning if you want to take that stress out of it of kind of getting to a place and realizing, okay, I have, there's nothing, there's no options here. If I had planned a little bit better, maybe I would have made a bit different choice. So I think that planning aspect is such a good reminder for sure.
Speaker 4:It's been great getting to chat with you and share my experience with all of your listeners.
Speaker 3:Yes, phoenix, we are so happy that you decided to join us today. Someone has a question about Italy or maybe studying the culinary arts as a vegan, and they want to reach out to you. What's the best place that they can?
Speaker 4:I would say the easiest place that most people have is Instagram. My Instagram is Angel of Harmony, with three zeros at the end, all one word. And I am not always on there 24 seven. But if you messaged me on there I'm pretty likely to get back to you, at least within a couple days.
Speaker 3:Those of you listening. We are so happy you decided to join us today. Hopefully this inspired some future travels and we will see you next time. Thank you, phoenix.
Speaker 4:Thank you Bye.
Speaker 3:Bye.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for listening to the Plant Centered and Thriving podcast today. If you found this episode inspiring, please share it with a friend or post it on social media and tag me so I can personally say thank you. Until next time, keep thriving.
