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The Plant Centered and Thriving Podcast
Welcome! If you're looking for plant-based inspiration, you've come to the right place! This podcast is here so you don’t have to feel alone on your plant-based journey. You'll hear from individuals who have taken the leap to go plant-based, why they did it, the struggles they faced, their words of wisdom for you, and how they're thriving now.
The Plant Centered and Thriving Podcast
Unveiling the Fertility-Boosting Power of a Plant-Based Plate with Judy Simon and Dr. Angela Thayer
Struggling with infertility? What's on your plate may be impacting you more than you know. Today I welcome Judy Simon, RDN and Dr. Angela Thayer, two leading experts in reproductive health. They join us to unravel the link between nutrition and fertility, potentially trimming the wait to welcome a new life. This is the basis for their upcoming book "Getting to Baby: A Food First Fertility Plan" that hits bookshelves, April 9th, 2024.
Resources from this Episode:
Getting to Baby: A Food-First Fertility Plan to Improve Your Odds and Shorten Your Time to Pregnancy
If you want to connect with Angela, visit the following:
Instagram: @angelathyermd
Website: angelathyermd.com
If you want to connect with Judy, visit the following:
Instagram: @fertilenutrition
Website: www.mind-body-nutrition.com
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Plant Centered Nutrition Essential Resources:
Welcome to the Plant-Centered and Thriving Podcast. I'm your host, ashley Kitchens. I'm a plant-based registered dietitian and virtual nutrition mentor. I was raised on an Angus cattle farm, grew up with a lot of GI issues and used the power of plant-based eating to promote healing. Here you'll find inspiration, ideas and encouragement for your own plant-based journey. I'm so thrilled you're here today. Let's get started.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the show plant-centered listener. My name is Ashley and I am your host today, and today I have two special guests with us today, an interview that I found incredibly fascinating. We talk about infertility and what you can do to take a food first approach to your fertility plan to improve your odds and shorten your time to get pregnant. This was a amazing conversation. Infertility can stem from a number of challenges. Pcos can stem from a number of challenges PCOS, endometriosis, fibroids, egg quality, low sperm count and so much more. But one thing that we talk about is how diet can impact all of these conditions and how making some small shifts in diet and in other parts of your life can have a huge impact. These two guests are incredibly knowledgeable about this subject and it was neat to learn how it impacts fertility, but also to just in general, how it impacts sort of your overall health, because we talk about that as well. So let me introduce our two guests and then we are going to dive into this amazing conversation.
Speaker 1:Our first guest is with Judy Simon. She is an award-winning registered dietitian nutritionist who specializes in reproductive health. She is the founder of MindBody Nutrition PLLC and a clinical instructor at the University of Washington. Judy's expertise includes fertility, pcos, eating disorders, weight-inclusive medicine and reproductive health. Judy has held leadership roles in the American Society of Reproductive Medicine Nutrition Special Interest Group and is a fellow of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics. Judy integrates mindfulness, intuitive eating, eating competence while taking a nonjudgmental, inclusive approach to help people have a healthier, more fertile life. Judy is the co-founder of Food for Fertility Program and co-author of the upcoming April 2024 book Getting to Baby a Food First Fertility Plan to Improve your Odds and Shorten your Time to Pregnancy, which we talk about.
Speaker 1:And then her lovely co-author and presenter is Dr Angela Thayer. She is a medical doctor who loves helping women discover the joy of food to improve their health. She is triple board certified in reproductive endocrinology and infertility, obgyn and lifestyle medicine. She completed her undergraduate education at Duke University Medical School at the University of Cincinnati College of Medicine, residency at Oregon Health and Science University and fellowship at the University of Texas Science Center at San Antonio. She and Judy Simon created the Food for Fertility program and have co-authored a book coming out, like I said, in 2024, april 9th. Dr Thayer is also a plant-based chef and is currently studying behavioral science at the London School of Economics, learning new skills to advance health and happiness. These two are an amazing, dynamic duo. Oh, my goodness, this podcast, this episode, is full of invaluable information and I cannot wait for you to listen to it. Please join me in welcoming to the show Judy and Angela. Judy, angela, thank you so much for coming on the show. I'm so excited to talk to you both today.
Speaker 2:Thanks, Ashley. We're excited to be here.
Speaker 3:Yes, thank you. We love food and plants, so we're so excited to be here.
Speaker 1:Perfect combination Good. So I would love to start with kind of just a simple Perfect combination Good. So I would love to start with kind of just a simple, simply speaking question on how significant is the link between nutrition and fertility. If you both kind of want to touch on that, Angela, if you want to go first, that'd be great, Sure.
Speaker 2:I think it's there. Sometimes people don't really recognize it, but we know that people who eat really well and get lots of nutrients from diets and are in an optimum state of health have better fertility. And if their diet is lacking, I mean, you know, you see this in the most dramatic cases, in cases of starvation and things when the hypothalamus can be suppressed in high stress, none you know. If you're not getting enough calories, if you're not meeting your energy needs, your reproduction is going to be compromised on both egg and sperm.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and to tail on to what Angela said, is because we worked with our patients, with many men and women, over time. We get to see the difference. We get to see them when they come back a few weeks later, whether they're in one of our cooking classes or we're seeing them one-on-one, and they're like wow, I have that fiber and I feel good, my cycle's getting regulated. So they start to see the benefits even before they're pregnant, which is really wonderful, because who doesn't want to feel better?
Speaker 1:Right, absolutely yes. Feeling better is such a big part of this journey, I'm sure, as you see in the patients and the clients that you work with. One thing I love about your book the subtitle says A Food First Fertility Plan to Improve your Odds and Shorten your Time to Pregnancy. I'm curious, what does Judy you can start? What does a food first approach to fertility sort of entail, or how would you describe that?
Speaker 3:Great and the reason we came up with that chapter? Because we had to talk about supplements a little bit in the book, because people are curious and they want to know will they make a difference? But we really want to say wait, hold on. Food needs to come first. Supplements, supplement, right. So we wanted food to come first and that's where we, you know, although everyone's needs can be a little bit different.
Speaker 3:You know, we came up with the idea of the fertility plate, similar to you know, usda has a plate. But really what's unique about our plate? Is we actually like? I asked Angela, shouldn't we have like a slice of bread? She says, oh no, no, we're going to put wheat on here. Because we want to show them where is that food coming. And we want them, when they think about grains, to think about what works for them, but the least processed, like, yeah, go ahead. And you know, try out farro and spelt and different grains that we have a whole chapter on that.
Speaker 3:That we really wanted them to get back to realizing what is food that isn't, you know, ultra processed. You know, without being too preachy or anything, so we're like. You know, whenever people, you know, without being too preachy or anything. So we're like you know, whenever people tell me like they're taking a magnesium supplement, they don't even know why they're taking them half the time they go oh, I heard it's really good for you and it's a really important mineral. And I'm like did you know?
Speaker 3:Seeds, nuts and whole grains not only have magnesium, they have lots of minerals that you need. So you're honestly doing a better job if you can try to get most of those micronutrients from your diet because they come along with so many other benefits. That magnesium supplement doesn't have any fiber right and it might not be the right form that you can absorb the best. So we're really trying to show that you know foods really do have most of what you need and supplement should supplement. So that's kind of why we put a lot of emphasis and we really said we're going to be bare bones when we talk about supplements.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I really appreciate that and, angela, I'm curious kind of your perspective on how maybe this food first approach differs from maybe conventional treatments or approaches.
Speaker 2:Well, it certainly complements everything, right. So I mean, a lot of people are going to get pregnant naturally easily, with no problems at all. And what happens what I see in the fertility space is, as women and men get older, certain things don't work as well the mitochondria don't work as well with cell division and so things. You know, anything you can do to strengthen the functioning of our cells, our sperm or eggs, the implantation into the endometrium, so things like antioxidants, which you can get from food or you can get from supplements. The food is where it's at, in a sense, that we have seen time and time again that food works better than supplements.
Speaker 2:And sometimes, oh, you know, I probably need to take some antioxidants, but the data isn't nearly as strong, it's harder. You know you cannot really see the same data from studying supplement intake and vitamin intake as you do from eating real whole foods. And especially, you know we start with like fruits and vegetables, so where most of the antioxidants are in the vegetables, and just emphasizing that we know that most people aren't getting enough. And so starting there seems just like an easy ask, like just add more vegetables, just add maybe another serving of fruits, trying to get those natural antioxidants which we know are going to work better to strengthen the action of the mitochondria that can help those cell divisions. So processes which is really important both for initial conception but then maintaining the pregnancy and reducing miscarriage risk. Oh yeah, wow.
Speaker 1:So really, instead of people having them shift their diets overnight or completely, it's sort of like this gradual approach like okay, what can we add to sort of just make this diet overall more well-rounded and to support your journey as you're going through this.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I like to share, if it's okay. I've worked with some couples over the past year that they're very honest. They're Pacific Northwest techies, they work a lot, they work hard, play hard, and they're like you know what, we don't cook. We just don't cook. And they would say, okay, this is where I eat. What should we do? We're trying to get pregnant, we might have to do IVF, in vitro fertilization and so I worked with them.
Speaker 3:I didn't judge them, and then we really figured out at each place that they would eat or pick up what vegetables or whole grains, what could they add to what they were eating.
Speaker 3:And, you know, I heard from them a few months later hey, we didn't have to do the IVF, I got pregnant, you know, with the lifestyle changes, you know with adding, you know, more plant-based foods to my diet. And then they came back and saw me when they were pregnant, you know, and said, hey, help me out so I can keep this up during pregnancy. And, as you know, ashley, as a dietician, like more than half the women are not eating adequate fruits and vegetables going into pregnancy. Right, and we have data now that shows, at the time of conception, what you're eating can help reduce risk of adverse outcomes of pregnancy. So less gestational diabetes, less preeclampsia, hypertension, preterm deliveries diabetes, less preeclampsia, hypertension, preterm deliveries. So we try to say this isn't helpful just for getting pregnant, reducing miscarriage loss and having the healthy pregnancy. And then, of course, those intergenerational benefits that your baby gets because you've been providing them with all the nutrients they need. So it kind of feels really good what you're passing on for the next generation.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. We love hearing success stories, client success stories on this show too, we do so any more you want to throw in.
Speaker 1:So I know you have lots of them. There were some great ones in the book too, and if we want to touch on those, we definitely can, because those were just so fun to read and I think it just energizes people to want to just kind of keep going on this journey as well, want to, you know, just kind of keep going on this journey as well. I'm kind of curious too what are maybe some common misconceptions that you see about food and fertility when you're working with clients? Is there anything that you know, something that you just kind of see pop up pretty often?
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely. I mean, probably the most common is, you know, people who are trying to go low carb or they're really focused on protein and they might not know the best plant sources of protein. So I find that that's. You know. We're always trying to talk about lentils and beans and tofu and tempeh and edamame and great sources, and then we're talking about how whole grains are so different from processed grains, and you don't. I'm fine if people don't want to eat processed grains, I mean, believe me, but I really don't want people to cut out whole grains because whole grains offer so many benefits and those are all carbs, and fruits and vegetables are all carbs and beans and lentils have carbs.
Speaker 2:So I mean all these things have carbohydrates, and to go low carbohydrate on a diet is passing up. The main fuel source your body and brain needs is glucose, right, you don't want to be running on ketones if you're trying to get pregnant. You don't want to be doing intermittent fasting if you're trying to be pregnant. So I mean, to me those are kind of. Sometimes people come in having seen stuff online or through social media that somebody might might have done and it might have worked for them, but it generally isn't following the best principles we know for health and nutrition and and those are some of the biggest myths I've seen- yeah, and I think to add to Angela is so often I have to spend the first 10 minutes listening to someone saying, well, I've already cut out gluten, dairy grains.
Speaker 3:They have this whole soy. Soy is evil. And I listen and acknowledge and they're not pregnant. And I said, well, would you be interested in hearing the current research? Because you know you never want to make anyone feel bad because they did it with good intentions. But they're so relieved they're like, oh my gosh, I can eat grains. I'm like, absolutely, and what can I have?
Speaker 3:And that soy myth just won't die, you know, and so we really talk about, you know, all the benefits. Especially we see a lot of women with polycystic ovarian syndrome, pcos, and we have so much data that it actually improves all their biomarkers. It improves their lipids and their blood sugars, you know. So really working with a lot of those myths that are out there and they're just stressing people out, they're really stressing people out and I always like to share the Ferdinut study for men, where they did actually a randomized controlled trial and all they told these guys to do was eat 60 grams of nuts a day.
Speaker 3:I think it was 12 to 14 weeks. They checked their semen parameters, their sperm parameters before and afterwards, and they all improved and I'm sure it was from all the selenium, magnesium, zinc, all those nutrients, monounsaturated fats, all that good stuff they got from nuts. So a lot of times we just see the women and we barely get to scratch the surface on their partners a lot if they have male partners, and so I'm always like okay, I want you to have a handful of seeds and nuts every day and make sure your partner who's ever sharing sperm should be doing the same thing. That's an easy thing that they can do. So when I see people hear that, they're like oh, okay, that's not so hard, I like nuts, I could do that right.
Speaker 1:Absolutely yes, nuts are delicious and they're like you said. They're packed with nutrients too, which is a benefit. I'm curious too for someone who comes to you and they are vegan or plant-based or very, very plant forward how do you approach to make sure that they are eating a well-rounded plant-based diet? And not just that, but I know that you do touch on supplements in the book as well. You know, just kind of like filling in the gaps if needed.
Speaker 3:Sure, and I do see a lot of folks that are really vegan by choice or for religious reasons. Quite often they follow a vegan practice, so I never assume anything 're taking a supplement, if we can review that. And I ask if they've had any lab work, because some people have had a recent lab work and some of the things that we look at is we look at if they have had a B12 level drawn, you know, maybe within that last year. Or have they had a history ever of a B12 deficiency? Because that is one that we want to make sure it's a little more challenging, you know, unless they're eating a lot of tempeh to make sure they're getting enough, you know B12. So talk, or maybe nutritional yeast, so talking to them about having adequate B12, which is in really most prenatals and there are vegan prenatals available right. And then the other nutrient that maybe, if you really were very careful, is choline, C-H-O-L-I-N-E. And choline is a tricky one because even for non-vegetarians, 90% of women are low in choline going into their pregnancy and it's kind of a supplement that I've been told. It's kind of bulky, so it's hard to put much of it into a prenatal unless you're taking like eight, which most people don't want and it's found in plant sources, but it's more concentrated in animal sources. So what I do is I talk to them about what are some of the plant sources. I actually work in my office suite with a vegan doctor. We had a whole discussion on this because she's like what I didn't know about this choline thing and I did show her how much they have. But honestly, just to be safe, if someone's trying to conceive, I would recommend a vegan source, a choline supplement and we mentioned that in the book the B12 and choline and then all the other supplements that we would recommend for any woman trying to get pregnant. You know, iron, iodine and folic acid. Those are really the biggies. And if they live somewhere where there isn't a lot of sun, like where we live in the Pacific Northwest, vitamin D does play an important role with helping, you know, with fertility. We may recommend a vegan, which are readily available vegan vitamin D source. But again, we would recommend that to everyone. Angela, can you think of any other ones that you might want to add in?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean. The only other one I'd add is for omega-3s. Depending on how much they're getting from nuts and ALA. The ALA conversion to DHA isn't as much as maybe you'd like, and so a lot of people might want to take a DHA EPA supplement and you can get that from algae. So a lot of people think it's fish based and you can only get it from fish, but it's because fish eat algae, so you can get vegan sources of you know, specifically DHA is the one we want more of, so we I usually recommend a DHA vegan supplement if somebody's yeah's trying to get pregnant through pregnancy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, thanks for adding that one, because you do get some from nuts. But, like you said, the conversion and just to make sure, I'm really big about talking about endocrine disruptors, like really checking in with people, like just how they handle their food, are they microwaving their leftovers in a plastic container? And I can talk to them like, hey, let's use glass, let's use ceramic, let's reduce our exposure to bisphenol A. I don't want to, you know, scare people when it comes to talking about. So we talk about the ones that you can easily reduce your risk from, and BPA. We said, okay, if you can cook your beans from scratch, great, if you already have some canned, rinse them off.
Speaker 3:Like trying to be very practical, and then, with phthalates, being able to say, look at your cleaning products and go really simple, stay away from the perfumed and the scented ones. And then if you can give them idea how they can actually use baking soda and vinegar and a lot of things that are much less toxic and dangerous. So those endocrine disruptors have a short half-life. So I love being able to ask them a few questions and, hey, this is going to be helpful and they feel like they've done something. Yes, it's wonderful and I'm going to turn it over to Angela because she loves boosters and disruptors.
Speaker 2:I do For boosters. One of the other ones we talk about is stress, right, which? Does stress contribute to infertility? Does infertility contribute to stress? Yeah, I think, with all of the technology and things we have today cycle tracking people just experience these huge ups and downs, these highs and lows every month if you get your period and you're not pregnant. And how you deal with that stress, not to mention just day to day stress, is so important. And the way you know our gut is a neuro is it has all of these neuroendocrine, the gut, mind, brain connection, right. So these things, all feedback to to each other, and so more stress can actually change the way we eat. You can crave comfort foods when you're stressed, so you might go, you know, eat differently. But so I think recognizing stress is present for most people.
Speaker 2:And then what outlets do you have that make you feel good? So it might be moving more. It might be going for a walk in nature. I think nature's great, being outside for some certain period of time every day, if you can. And then some people like journaling or just 10 minutes of meditation a great meditation practice, mindful being mindful is really helpful. So any of those practice mindful, being mindful is really helpful. So any of those I think can be really helpful. They're hard to measure, like the direct impact on on fertility, but I think it is just key to living is to to have some of those good, healthy outlets to to help you manage stress.
Speaker 2:And then for disruptors, I think the one I would bring up is alcohol, which is so common in our society, and a lot of people who don't drink much but drink a little bit don't really think it's affecting fertility perhaps, but it could be.
Speaker 2:And so there is data, especially for people who are in the IVF field or where they've studied this in fertility clinics. We're drinking alcohol, you know, the month before an IVF cycle even, or during the IVF cycle, or the patient or the partner, either one. It can all decrease success rates and embryo quality, and so if somebody asked, well, I will always say the safest answer is to abstain completely from alcohol if you're trying to conceive, just because alcohol doesn't really have any nutritional benefit. It is frequently used in social situations, and so I think now too, there is more of an emphasis on not drinking alcohol. There's like a new market, right. So a lot of people are exploring non-alcoholic drinks and being out with friends, and so I think that also is helping us, because it's becoming more socially acceptable to not drink alcohol when you're out with friends, and I think that we should embrace that trend, I agree.
Speaker 1:I think a lot of people listening will agree as well that we're like we, we like these non-alcoholic bars popping up, you know, and it just being more socially acceptable. So I'm glad that you brought that up because I do think it's really important. So I'm curious, each of you, if you have sort of just like one small piece of advice, which I? This book is packed with advice and I will say it's attainable advice. I feel like it's things that people can actually do, versus like it being militant or like you have to like check all these boxes. So I really appreciated that about the book. But if you both have sort of a piece of advice that you would give for a listener who maybe is just kind of starting to make this connection between their diet and their fertility journey.
Speaker 2:So I think the key to success and building a sustainable habit, healthy lifestyle, is don't try to do everything all at once, like that just seems to me. I've seen more people who get despondent and depressed when things don't all just fall into place immediately, and that's why we really emphasize cooking, cooking, learning to cook at home or learning other methods Like what are shortcuts, cause it seems to be a time Everybody's time is so valuable. So what little steps can you take on a regular basis every week to add, to enhance and benefit your health and fertility? So that's, that's like my nice take home.
Speaker 3:I would add to support when people read the book. We want them to feel like, okay, some of this, what resonates with me? Kind of I hope they read that some of the things you're doing are really positive, like, yay, I got this down, now I'm going to try beans. But ask for support. If you're single, maybe you want to cook with a friend sometime, or a family member or a partner. Don't feel like you have to make all the changes.
Speaker 3:I have one couple. I love this. They do a cooking date night now. They plan on the weekend and then, instead of, like you know, often it's the female who's the one who's cooking, they cook it like a date night and they go, darn it. We're going to make this fertility thing fun. You know we're going to make it with like candles and a yummy meal and make it really special because we don't know the day that we're going to get pregnant and we have to go on with our life.
Speaker 3:So I think asking friends or family for support I know you know, with our book coming out, you know my friends are. You know many of them are becoming grandparents, so they're almost like, hey, well, if my kid brings it up that you know I have friends that are buying them for their kids and I'm like, okay, make sure you know they want your support. But if they want your support, how cool is that? You know adding more recipes or including things at family gatherings that are going to be really nourishing, instead of just saying, oh, it's going to be heavy appetizers and heavy sweets. You know really saying, hey, where's the plant food? You know, where's all that good stuff? If you want grandchildren, let's feed them right. So that's kind of where my generation is at, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Right, and I think you know food should be fun and that's the other thing I think we want people to. It's not drudgery, it's not we don't know. I mean we want people to, you know, enjoy food and have joy in food and cooking and sharing a meal with friends or someone special and experimenting with new flavors and spices and just taking that time to be curious and creative in the kitchen. I think is a great thing to look forward to and it gets people excited.
Speaker 1:So the book comes out tomorrow, april 9, which is so exciting. I know that you can pre order it right now, but if people do end up catching this episode after April 8, where is the best place for them to grab your book?
Speaker 3:All the biggies and many of the small independent ones. So absolutely pre-order. It'll come right to your door, you'll be cooking out of it before you know it and we're excited for you to share your stories and we really hope your listeners enjoy. I think we have what 11, 10, 11 stories of women have gone through our Food for Fertility program on their journeys and they still make me cry some of them because it's just some of them have three kids now. So it's really, really exciting to see where they've been and how a way that food has played a role for them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I know, I know so many listeners can agree that just food plays such an important role in so many things. So I love that we're talking about fertility, because we haven't talked about that on the podcast yet. Oh good, great. And I like too because you also include like a blueprint, sort of like a six-week guide, which is kind of nice as well for someone who's really just getting started. So there's a lot of information in here.
Speaker 3:But if people want to go above and beyond and connect with both of y'all, where is the best place for them to do that? You can follow me at Fertile Nutrition on Instagram, and I have a website, mindbodynutritioncom, too.
Speaker 2:Yes, and mine's Angela Thayer MD, on Instagram or same name for my website.
Speaker 1:Wonderful, wonderful, well. Again, thank you both for coming on and just sharing just this invaluable information when it comes to people's fertility journeys. Thank you so much. Thanks, ashley, you're welcome. Thank you, again, sharing just this invaluable information when it comes to people's fertility journeys. Thank you so much. Thanks, ashley, you're welcome. Thank you again. Thank you so much for listening to the Plant-Centered and Thriving Podcast today. If you found this episode inspiring, please share it with a friend or post it on social media and tag me so I can personally say thank you. Until next time, keep thriving.
